Comments on: Ecclesiastical Polities http://vvcix.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ecclesiastical-polities/ Cense and (Non)Sensibility: Sketches from a Wanderer in the Ancient Church Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:51:32 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: jamesthethickheaded http://vvcix.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ecclesiastical-polities/#comment-367 jamesthethickheaded Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:37:08 +0000 http://vvcix.wordpress.com/?p=1056#comment-367 Athanasia: Forgive my rambling obtuseness. There is a presumption in this piece of awareness of postings elsewhere regarding the doings in our humble Antiochian Archdiocese, as well as noises being made regarding roll-up of our USA's jurisdictional mess into a form of unity under the EP. I read what folks post, and I hear their cases... all of which have weight. There are also other conditions which attend and not as easily dismissed as might seem warranted. For my part, I tend to wonder what it is that makes us rush to respond to these things, and just listening to the internet... sometimes the characterizations, the categorizations of folks and their responses and the manner of some respondents... it all sets my teeth on edge... and I can't keep silent as often as I vow to. Like all the others, I profess to see life somewhat more broadly, and resist pigeonholes... but then according to my Mom, I'm am also just naturally a curmudgeon. My wife calls it my "Mule" streak... so there you go. And maybe this makes me less coherent at times. My apologies, but thanks for your patience and kind words. S-P: Exactly! Orrologion: Fabulous points. I haven't seen as much written on these as should be. At times it makes one wonder whether the Church is not all that different from the market where we used to ponder the difference between a "stock market" and "market of stocks". I don't mean to compare commerce with worship... but simply to acknowledge that as I become more aware and read more, it seems there is more than one Orthodoxy (ref. Kallistos Ware on this among others)... and as the Church recovers her identity from various 19th and 20th century captivities... these are still being sorted out. Leaves one firmly in the presence of "The mystery of the Church... ever one-and-the-same... and ever new." Athanasia:

Forgive my rambling obtuseness. There is a presumption in this piece of awareness of postings elsewhere regarding the doings in our humble Antiochian Archdiocese, as well as noises being made regarding roll-up of our USA’s jurisdictional mess into a form of unity under the EP.

I read what folks post, and I hear their cases… all of which have weight. There are also other conditions which attend and not as easily dismissed as might seem warranted. For my part, I tend to wonder what it is that makes us rush to respond to these things, and just listening to the internet… sometimes the characterizations, the categorizations of folks and their responses and the manner of some respondents… it all sets my teeth on edge… and I can’t keep silent as often as I vow to. Like all the others, I profess to see life somewhat more broadly, and resist pigeonholes… but then according to my Mom, I’m am also just naturally a curmudgeon. My wife calls it my “Mule” streak… so there you go. And maybe this makes me less coherent at times. My apologies, but thanks for your patience and kind words.

S-P:
Exactly!

Orrologion:

Fabulous points. I haven’t seen as much written on these as should be. At times it makes one wonder whether the Church is not all that different from the market where we used to ponder the difference between a “stock market” and “market of stocks”. I don’t mean to compare commerce with worship… but simply to acknowledge that as I become more aware and read more, it seems there is more than one Orthodoxy (ref. Kallistos Ware on this among others)… and as the Church recovers her identity from various 19th and 20th century captivities… these are still being sorted out. Leaves one firmly in the presence of “The mystery of the Church… ever one-and-the-same… and ever new.”

]]> By: s-p http://vvcix.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ecclesiastical-polities/#comment-366 s-p Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:49:49 +0000 http://vvcix.wordpress.com/?p=1056#comment-366 The Cliff Notes version of your most excellent post is my spiritual father's advice when I asked him what I should do with all this "information": "Forget all that crap, and pray." I think I'll stick with him instead of the internet. The Cliff Notes version of your most excellent post is my spiritual father’s advice when I asked him what I should do with all this “information”:
“Forget all that crap, and pray.”
I think I’ll stick with him instead of the internet.

]]> By: Athanasia http://vvcix.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ecclesiastical-polities/#comment-365 Athanasia Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:58:11 +0000 http://vvcix.wordpress.com/?p=1056#comment-365 Forgive me, but I read this post and haven't a single clue what it was about; however, we do have a role. It is to remain faithful to the Church, Her teachings, and pray for God's mercy on us all. The latter three words being rather significant no matter what is being lobbed by whom against whatever. "Keep thy mind in hell and despair not," said St. Silouan the Athonite to his spiritual children. Not a bad thing to do, thus avoiding being hit in the head with whatever is being launched at the moment. Forgive me, but I read this post and haven’t a single clue what it was about; however, we do have a role. It is to remain faithful to the Church, Her teachings, and pray for God’s mercy on us all. The latter three words being rather significant no matter what is being lobbed by whom against whatever.

“Keep thy mind in hell and despair not,” said St. Silouan the Athonite to his spiritual children. Not a bad thing to do, thus avoiding being hit in the head with whatever is being launched at the moment.

]]> By: orrologion http://vvcix.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/ecclesiastical-polities/#comment-364 orrologion Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:32:21 +0000 http://vvcix.wordpress.com/?p=1056#comment-364 ...<i>given circumstances where our Patriarch has seemed to stretch his hand to help sort out our situation, I think I find the notions of “autocephaly” and “self-ruled” American Orthodoxy far less compelling, and the “threat” of rule from abroad less ominous or unacceptable than might once have been the case. For that matter, all the bother of whether the whole of the Diaspora should be under the EP seems secondary as well to whether such rule would be good, unify, and evangelize. Maybe I’m just a new guy… but it seems as if there are far too many assumptions, presumptions, and suspicions running around for me to feel comfortable that “goodness” … though always a part… is kept as the core focus in these doings.</i> I think this is very important. We're all under someone in Orthodoxy, and it's as easy to dismiss NYC and DC as being 'over there' as it is to lob the same complaints at Istanbul, Moscow or Antioch. The real question is whether the pastoral and evangelistic needs in America are being addressed, whether the church's are reserved for certain ethnic elites over the salvatory needs of others, whether the churches here are fleeced to fund activities back home where the 'real Orthodox' are. The question isn't local or foreign obedience, it is whether Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, whether America and 'the diaspora' are used by the mother churches (and the governments and social movements that often control them). …given circumstances where our Patriarch has seemed to stretch his hand to help sort out our situation, I think I find the notions of “autocephaly” and “self-ruled” American Orthodoxy far less compelling, and the “threat” of rule from abroad less ominous or unacceptable than might once have been the case. For that matter, all the bother of whether the whole of the Diaspora should be under the EP seems secondary as well to whether such rule would be good, unify, and evangelize. Maybe I’m just a new guy… but it seems as if there are far too many assumptions, presumptions, and suspicions running around for me to feel comfortable that “goodness” … though always a part… is kept as the core focus in these doings.

I think this is very important. We’re all under someone in Orthodoxy, and it’s as easy to dismiss NYC and DC as being ‘over there’ as it is to lob the same complaints at Istanbul, Moscow or Antioch.

The real question is whether the pastoral and evangelistic needs in America are being addressed, whether the church’s are reserved for certain ethnic elites over the salvatory needs of others, whether the churches here are fleeced to fund activities back home where the ‘real Orthodox’ are. The question isn’t local or foreign obedience, it is whether Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, whether America and ‘the diaspora’ are used by the mother churches (and the governments and social movements that often control them).

]]>